Are you knurling them for fear they'll work their way out? Gosh, they're only $6 apiece at Dale Coopers, why fool around with the old ones?

I had my engine rebuilt about 15 years ago and had silicon bronze guides installed, hoping they would alleviate the tendency for the old "splasher" valve stems to stick (due to poor oiling in that area). I don't seem to have had the valves sticking since then, but maybe that's 'cause I use plenty of Marvel oil in the gasoline! Anyway I don't know if the experts agree that these particular guides do the trick, but if they do agree, you might take this opportunity to look for some -- if they're still available.

My personal preference (stop me if you've heard this one) is to install thin-wall bronze guide liners. I use the original guides, ream them and install the liners, then hone them to finish. I hone to the low end of the tolerance and so far haven't had any troubles.
Whatever method you choose, be certain to prevent any debris from falling through the oil drain holes in the floor of the tappet chambers. Crap that falls through goes right into the oil troughs leading to the main bearings.
I'll throw in a couple of photos if I don't screw it up.......again.
This particular set was done with new guides. If you do go with new, check to see that they are made correctly with the counterbore in the exhaust guides.
F

Well, you obviously have given this a great deal of thought and have machining abilities! So I'll defer to your good judgment.

Was the purpose of the liners to prevent hanging up of the valve stems? Or is there another reason? I'm curious, because valves that stick (after sitting a long time) seem to be a common problem with the old splasher 6's and 8's. (When I first got my '37 all the valves were stuck open, and I had to remove the head and drive the valves down with a hammer.) I now use a bit of Marvel Oil in every tankful but, as I say, I had the (solid, I think -- not lined) silicon bronze guides installed some years ago so maybe that's helping the situation.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of using liners as it pertains to issues in an engine that has been idle for extended periods. I'll surmise that there are other factors that enter into that discussion, like what kind of oil was used in the engine prior to it's extended sleep and how old it was then. There's no mystery that getting adequate lubrication up into the tappet chamber of a splasher, or any L-head engine for that matter, is a challenge. I really wish I could fit myself into an engine and watch it running from the inside.......but I still have to use my imagination for that task. Running one "on the bench" with chamber covers off would be interesting.
The action of the dippers tends to throw oil upward toward the cam-side of the crankcase and I suppose some splashes through the oil drain holes in the chamber floor but I can't imagine that's it's significant and even less likely that it finds its way to the bottom of the guide, not to mention that the cam itself is in the way of a direct path. But, success speaks for itself. The 212 that these are in has been running perfectly for 1600 miles and, although that's hardly a record, I think it's indicative of performance. I have a similarly modified set in our 202 Jet and it's approaching 4000 miles, 1600 of which was the San Mateo trip.
The liners themselves are cheap (<$1 each) but tooling up to do the installation and final sizing isn't. I had the luxury of having the equipment to do the rest already.
Bronze exhibits a lower frictional coefficient than iron and requires less lubricant to prevent friction and stave off wear. (I just made that up but it sounds good)
I also make sure that the valve stems are polished before installation.
I'm full of such ideas......some just say I'm full of it.
Hey! Who's little Brats are those anyway?
F

I have the eight in my '47 Commodore Club Coupe. It is out and on the bench. Guides is one thing I am considering replacing. I had to deal with three severly stuck valves in the open position.

Seems to me I read in one of the Hudson repair manuals that Hudson splasher system was specially designed to creat a "fog" of oil that would lubricate the entire internals including the hard to reach places like valve guides. Perhaps modern oils are "stickier" than back then and don't have the "fog" creating properties of older oils. Now that I've mentioned that, what is the best oil to use in the crankcase?

In all splasher engines today use a good brand of 10-30 oil. Walt.

I've done everything to valve guides, knurled them, sleeved them, had a machinist put coils in them, even bored out a set for my 26 motor and inserted modern guides. That being said, the knurling didn't last long, the sleeving worked ok, the coils, lasted about 500 miles and the modern inserts worked great. Having said that, I have opened very low mileage, original cars and thought the guides were worn out Then it hit me, the guides are only splash lubricated, not like modern valves where the chamber is pressure fed. The problem with most of the modifications is they don't hold up well when the clearance isn't great enough. So what ever you do, and I would suggest new guides, make sure you give them a bit more clearance then modern machinist would be cofortable or they will stick, gauld up or otherwise self-destruct.

Not really what you were asking, but maybe they aren't as bad as you think.

Lew

'Way back in the early part of this thread I mentioned my preference as being the thin-wall bronze guideliner. I'm still a proponent of that method and even more so after many thousands more miles on my engines with that feature. In most cases, there's no need to replace the original guides (unless, of course, they're too worn or damaged) since they get reamed to the liner OD anyway. See photos.
I suspect that Hudson's claim to have the lubrication question answered by claiming a "fog of oil" to lube the guides but I'm thinkin' that was a marketing dept. statement. No side-valve/flathead/L-head engine gets much lubrication in that area, splasher or pressure-lubricated engine, it's always a concern. Knurling is a "Band-Aid" fix, IMO, and may actually cause some grief by providing a path for exhaust gasses to enter the stem/guide interface resulting in premature "sticking" of the exhausts. Not an issue in the intakes.
Contemporary oils may behave differently than the oils of old, and not have the tendency to create a mist but my guess is that there's a mist of oil in any engine. Pressure lubrication doesn't squirt much if any oil onto the stems.
I aim for the low end of the fit tolerance and have never had any issue with "sticking".
Just my two-bits worth.

We do a lot of valve work. There are several great ideas in this thread. As Frank has pointed out the liners. This is a common practice with modern engines, and works well. As Jon pointed out on his engine, silicon bronze works very well, but clearence must be calculated correctly because they heat at a different rate than cast. Modern oil as Walt talked about is a very important factor here. Modern oil is a real key here.Modern oil works so much better!. The old oil were horrible compared to new oils. This is very evident when you take down the oil pan from and old engine and most are a slug-fest! Even in full pressure engines you find build-up of slug. Also remember, the book recommending "NON-DETERGENT" oils. The detergent oil of the time was very acidic , and would/could cause further damage and build up. It was also mentioned about oiling on splasher engines. The Hudson splasher engine oiled very good. Some of the earlier engines, early 30's and before, had some oiling issues, but I don't believe it was because they were splashers, but oil volume and delivery were more of the issue. Hudson changed that for the better in '34 ? If your splasher engine is warmed up to operating temp., remove the oil fill cap, raise the RPM's to 1200-1500 , and with a bright light, look down the fill hole. It should be so dense, you can't see past the upper tray, which is visual before rpm increase. Also, the valve guides lube very well on flatheads when you let off the throttle. With the throttle plate closed, and the vehicle is still in motion, it draws oil up into the guides. It is very evident also of this is the slight bit of smoke when you get back on the accelerator while cruising.

A side note- Glad to see you are still out there Walt M. Hope you and Margret are doing good!

Frank, wish I had your hone tank!! totally envious!!!! You do have some trick equipment- you need to move here!! bring all your stuff!!

[quote="Frank Hughes" post=19148]'Way back in the early part of this thread I mentioned my preference as being the thin-wall bronze guideliner. I'm still a proponent of that method and even more so after many thousands more miles on my engines with that feature. In most cases, there's no need to replace the original guides (unless, of course, they're too worn or damaged) since they get reamed to the liner OD anyway. See photos.
I suspect that Hudson's claim to have the lubrication question answered by claiming a "fog of oil" to lube the guides but I'm thinkin' that was a marketing dept. statement. No side-valve/flathead/L-head engine gets much lubrication in that area, splasher or pressure-lubricated engine, it's always a concern. Knurling is a "Band-Aid" fix, IMO, and may actually cause some grief by providing a path for exhaust gasses to enter the stem/guide interface resulting in premature "sticking" of the exhausts. Not an issue in the intakes.
Contemporary oils may behave differently than the oils of old, and not have the tendency to create a mist but my guess is that there's a mist of oil in any engine. Pressure lubrication doesn't squirt much if any oil onto the stems.
I aim for the low end of the fit tolerance and have never had any issue with "sticking".
Just my two-bits worth.

Right, here's my two-bob's worth. You probably do not need to do anything to the valve guides. Knurling is a waste of time, because the high ridges of the knurling will just wear away double quick. My experience of bronze liners has not been good unless you allow extra clearance, particularly if using stainless-stemmed valves, as these expand more than silicon steel valves. I had experience of a 1928 Hudson on which the exhaust valves would all jam up after 20 miles. It had bronze liners, and .002" clearance. I took the head off, removed the valves and ran a 3/8" drill down each guide. This gave the valves a bit of wobble, and we never had any more problems! The Hudson Jet had Bi-metal valves. You can actually see where the austenitic material starts. These give you the best of both worlds, a carbon steel guide, which does not need much lubrication, and a stainless head which resist burning. Most valves supplied for use with modern fuel are all stainless (austenitic), and the stems expand much more, and if you so not allow sufficient clearance you will get hot jamming of the stem in the guide. Do not confuse this with cold sticking after sitting. The latter is caused by rust build-up in the stem and guide, and is exacerbated by the normal practice of leaving the car out after you come home, unpack, clean the car, then start it and drive into the garage, and switch off leaving a coating of highly corrosive acidic moisture on the guides and stems. As far as lubrication goes, nothing will lubricate the exhaust valve stems. It is best to fit the correct guides which have a recess in the top to allow for expansion of the stem and for carbon build-up. My, we do rabbit on don't we?

Knurling has never been an option for me but, for the reason Geoff cites, I've never done it to my engines. We did it at a shop I worked in many years ago and we did so reluctantly for clients who insisted, 'cause it was cheaper. You get what you pay for.
I can't speak to the specs for the '28Hudson with 3/8ths stems, but the later 11/32" exhausts have a specified .003" to .005" clearance, so .002" for a larger ex. stem would have been substantially undersized guide bores to begin with. You can't blame the liner for that mistake.
I can only say what my personal experience is and so far It looks pretty good. I will admit to going a hair over minimum on the intakes because the .0015" specified just seems a bit [i]too[/i] tight.
Guide shrinkage upon installation is minimal but I just go to my initial spec, drive one home, measure the bore size and alter my gauge setting by the difference.....if there is any. I like .002" for inlets.
F

Back in the 70's, before I could do the work myself, I had an overhead valve motor that needed a valve job. The motor needed 2 guides. Not a big deal except he could not source them. He said that he could knurl the guides and that was a "Used Car" type fix. When I asked what he meant he said there were 2 problems. The increased oil flow area between the guide and the stem could cause a very slight increase in oil usage and the decreased surface area of the guide (knurl point) would wear down quicker and the clearance would increase.
I had it done, as I needed the car. I only drove the car for another year so I don't know how much of a problem the knurled guides caused. But that is my experience.

As far is not getting much oil in the side chamber. I am always amazed how many Hudson motors, (including my own) have lots of oil on the side with the chamber. There must be a bunch of oil in there as a lot of it tries to escape the heat and pressure of the motor through the valve covers. Preferring to be splashed on the side, dropped on the road and be rendered into useless waist.

Lewis