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Starter bolt removal

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(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

Trying to remove the starter from the '50 C6. Everything is loose, but I haven't been able to work out how the bolts come out. 
Come to think of it, is there a way to remove the starter and bendix as an assembly without dismantling the super matic apparatus?

Thanks again.


 
Posted : 04/04/2022 4:24 pm
(@obermeier)
Posts: 595
Honorable Member Registered
 

The "bolts" are actually studs with nuts each end and a collar in the middle which fits inside a recess in the housing. so they are not removable unless you take the bellhousing off.


 
Posted : 04/04/2022 6:16 pm
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

Well that's handy. Any suggestions on an efficient way to get the starter assembly out?


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 5:03 am
(@Dany Spring)
Posts: 0
 

I've never had one with supermatic, but I always leave the nuts on the bell housing side tight, and remove the ones on the starter side to take the starter out.


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 5:28 am
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

I will probably end up doing that, but was trying to avoid having to remove the vacuum drive mechanism that goes to the clutch (which happens to be right in the way). I don't suppose it would kill me to remove the transmission or anything else in my way, but I am trying to just get the starter working to turn the engine before deciding how deep I want to dive on this project.
If any of you old hands have any suggestions, I'm all ears. Thanks.


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 6:20 am
(@Dany Spring)
Posts: 0
 

If you go that route, keep in mind, the trans comes out the top. It might be easier to take off the vacuum stuff.


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 8:16 am
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
Noble Member Registered
 

Two comments / questions:

1). Why are you trying to remove the starter in the first place?  If there is a problem, it might be solved without removing the starter.

2). If the Supermatic cylinder is in the way, there may be a way to remove it without making a whole production of it.  Have you looked in the shop manual for instructions on removal?  As you may know, you have access to a LOT of manuals and factory updates (listings are under "Library" drop-down, above.


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 2:12 pm
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

Jon, I need to remove the starter so I can get the bendix unstuck. If I can get the thing to turn the engine with the starter, i can get it running, or find out why it won't
I have not seen anything in the shop manual regarding starter removal specifically, so thought I'd aee if anyone here had any tricks, or "hacks" as the kids like to say.
That being said, if you know of a way to remove the bendix and gear with the starter in situ, I would love to hear it.


 
Posted : 05/04/2022 2:55 pm
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
Noble Member Registered
 

I think you may have to bite the bullet and pull that Supermatic power unit.  It probably needs tuning up and cleaning off, anyway.

Once you have the starter fully accessible, unscrew the nuts holding the starter in place, and start gently tapping the starter with a hammer while lifting on the front of the starter.  My guess is that the starter will suddenly pop loose, and then you can slide it off the threaded studs and remove it.

Are you saying that the starter jams in the flywheel gears, periodically?  If so, it sounds like a problem I had for several years.  I'd turn the ignition key, the idiot lights would light, and then I'd push the starter.  Nothing would happen and the idiot lights would go out momentarily.  Another starter jam!   I tried everything: took it to a starter/generator place ("Looks fine, we didn't find any problems"), bought a rebuilt Bendix, changed the Bendix spring, tried oiling the shaft, then un-oiled the shaft, had someone rebuild the starter motor, on and on.  Even used a fine file to clean up the ring gears where they seemed a bit worn. Each time I would put the starter back into the car, it would work a couple of times and then jam again.  Finally I borrowed a perfectly good Hudson starter from a friend who was working on his engine, and installed it.  The starter worked perfectly, and kept starting time after time.  So at that point I knew it: after 50 years of flawless service, my starter had turned on me and was now The Starter From Hell.  At that point my friend, taking pity on me, actually gave me an old starter which I installed, and I haven't had a bit of trouble since.  I never did figure out what went wrong.  I think possibly the shaft got twisted during one of the "jams", because whenever I removed the starter and gave it some juice, it had a vibration.  Maybe THAT caused the jamming. 

Who knows?  Anyway, all is well now.  If you don't yet have a lot of friends in the Club, make it a point to get to know Hudson people.  Especially those who have Hudson parts that fit your particular year.  They can be [u]awfully[/u] handy in a pinch! 


 
Posted : 06/04/2022 6:30 am
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

This engine has not been run since about 1970, so every syatem is going to need some attention eventually.

The starter spins fine, but the bendix will not move forward enough to engage the ring gear. A member here suggested removing the starter and trying to free up the bendix. That was my plan.
If i can get the starter to engage properly, I can get the engine to spin vs.turning by hand. If it spins without issue, I will try to start it. If it starts, then I will be a lot more likely to commit to restoring it, or possibly finding a better body for this drivetrain. 
We don't seem to have much HET activity around here. I have reached out to some local members listed in the 20-22 directory, but have heard back from one only.


 
Posted : 06/04/2022 7:25 am
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

Just for the record, an inboard bendix is what one might think of as outboard (both are referenced in the 49-52 shop manual page 6-7), since it lives outside the starter motor. You may then be as confused as I have been the past few days.

Inboard seems to mean that the bendix and spring assembly is IN LINE with the center axis of the starter and can, presumably, be removed with the starter in situ by removing a snap ring. I am at work today so will not be able to verify until the weekend. Someone here on the site mentioned that it could be removed by driving out a pin, but I now believe that he was referring to the outboard bendix that was used with the GM sourced automatic transmission.

If I have that wrong, please feel free to correct the record.


 
Posted : 06/04/2022 8:51 am
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
Noble Member Registered
 

Darren, have you attempted to move the Bendix drive up and down the shaft (probably by rotating it while keeping the shaft from rotating)?  It should move easily.  If it doesn't, this could mean some sort of obstruction or even a bent shaft.

Did you mention your location?  (I was just skimming over your comments, but don't recall seeing where you live).  Possibly some good-hearted soul, noticing that you are in his area, will reach out to offer hands-on help.  One never knows...


 
Posted : 08/04/2022 6:49 am
(@Darren Lee)
Posts: 0
Topic starter
 

Jon, I'm in Northwest AR. I have asked in various threads about what parts are supposed to slide, whether just the gear, or if the part just behind the gear. Have not gotten any answers. I am operating under the assumption that sitting for 50 years or so has caused the thing to just be gummed up. 

I will be able to get under the car this weekend and take another look. If it is just a matter of removing a snap ring and sliding the whole assembly out, the that is what I will do. If I have to remove the vacuum apparatus, I will do so and pull the whole starter and probably rebuild it while I'm at it. The goal is to get the engine to crank. I don't want to start spending time and money on it until I am reasonably sure the engine is sound. Something caused a previous owner to stop driving it. I am told he just got too old to drive, but if it was something mechanical, it would be nice to find out before too much blood and treasure is spent. Starter on an inline 6 has always been a pretty simple task, but not this one, so far. Thanks for the insight. I'll let you know how it goes.
 


 
Posted : 08/04/2022 9:55 am
(@adamb)
Posts: 320
Reputable Member Registered
 

You do NOT remove the snap ring.....all that snap ring does is hold the big thick washer and the spring ahead of it on. What you DO, is push hard on that washer, push it forward until the set screw, or in some cases a pin, that holds the whole Bendix assembly onto the starter motor shaft, is exposed. If it is a set screw, you unscrew it until the screw is out of the shaft, and then you can use a small puller to pull the Bendix assembly off the shaft. Reason I say to use a small puller is that after 70 years of being in a dirt floored barn, there IS going to be some rust holding it to the shaft. You are going to need to spray the thing liberally in a good penetrating oil. PB Blaster works, given some time. Better would be Kano Labs Kroil in the spray can. WD-40 won't cut the mustard. In the case there is a pin holding the Bendix on and mot a set screw, you need a 1/4" punch to punch it out, tapping the punch with a hammer. You could compress the spring with a couple of 2-1/2" long bolts on each side using flat washers as hooks on the front and back of the spring , and nuts. Tighten the nuts evenly on each side until the washer is far forward enough to expose the set screw or pin. Once the Bendix is off, then you can try working the Bendix forward and back on the scroll. Might use the cheaper PB Blaster and brake cleaner to flush all the rust and dirt out. When the PB Blaster is not longer running  out dirty and black, spray it good with the brake cleaner until that runs clear. The Bendix gear should be moving forward and back freely. Do not use oil or grease on it before putting it back on,, as this usually just traps dirt and it will stick again.


 
Posted : 08/04/2022 3:06 pm

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