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Need advice! Starter won't turn over engine!

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(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
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Topic starter
 

I'm having trouble and wondered if anyone could offer advice?

I have a 1937 Terraplane. Everything worked fine until this afternoon.

I pushed the starter and idiot lights dimmed but starter did not turn over engine.

I cleaned the cable clamp and replaced. Still nothing.

Replaced cable with a #2 (Tractor Supply was out of #0 and #1). Still nothing.

Got the hand crank out. This always starts mein a pinch. The crank would not even turn. Something is jammed up in the engine. Yet the car is out of gear. Never had this happen in 40 years.

One other strange thing: Isn't the starter drive supposed to turn freely? Mine is locked up tight.

Any ideas?


 
Posted : 20/06/2015 12:53 pm
(@Mike Sheridan)
Posts: 0
 

If the bendix on the starter is frozen or just jammed in the flywheel, this could be the problem. Disconnect the battery. Take the starter bolts out and remove the starter. Now try to turn the engine over by hand. This will tell you if it's the starter/bendix. I've seen bendix teeth get jammed with the flywheel teeth before on worn combo's. With the starter out, you can give it power, ground it and see if it will turn when you push the button.


 
Posted : 20/06/2015 1:54 pm
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
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Topic starter
 

Thank you, I'll try that tomorrow.


 
Posted : 20/06/2015 3:15 pm
(@josh-1938)
Posts: 288
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FYI

As Mike mentioned the Teeth may be jammed together if you cant crank motor by hand. The Idiot lights dim because of the overload trying to turn the motor while teeth locked. If the starter wont come out when bolts are removed try holding the fan belt down then turn the fan blade in 'reverse rotation' to un jam. You could also jacks the front up then put a large screw driver in the ring geat teeth and rotate reverse rotation When removed, check the Bendix, the starter bushings, if shaft true, and the ring gear.


 
Posted : 20/06/2015 4:42 pm
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
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Topic starter
 

The saga continues....

I got the starter motor out of the engine. The ring gear teeth look okay. The starter drive teeth look okay. The starter drive shaft appears true. The drive slides easily up and down the shaft.

However, there seems to be a spring within the drive that partly pulls it back (as it revolves), away from the ring gear. But the drive gear doesn't "unscrew" all the way back to its stop; you have to assist it. Should it unscrew away from the ring gear, with force? And continue right back until it can go no further? If so, then what should I replace or adjust?

Note there IS a big humongous spring at the very end of the drive shaft, whose purpose I do not know. It looks okay. I DO have a replacement for it (Wickwire) but there seems no reason to replace it.


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 3:50 am
(@m-patterson56)
Posts: 452
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Jon,
I almost hate to ask, but with the starter out, does the hand crank now turn the engine freely?


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 3:57 am
(@Mike Sheridan)
Posts: 0
 

The gear on the starter shaft ought to run up and down easily. If not, clean the shaft and lightly oil it. Move the gear around so you can clean the whole shaft. Oil and dirt sometimes build up and cause the gear not to move freely. The big spring on the end is there to take up shock when it engages and when the engine fires and throws the gear out of contact with the flywheel. As long as it isn't broken anywhere, it should be ok to keep using. But you do have to check carefully all along the spring to make sure it isn't cracked/broken at either attachment point or anywhere in the coils.


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 5:15 am
(@dlm31)
Posts: 960
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Jon, if you have fixed the convertible top-this would not have happened !!!

As Frank pointed out, does the engine turn over now?. If it still doesn't, remove the spark plugs and see if it does. Also, does the starter Bendix still have both of the screws in place that hold the Bendix spring?. I have found it somewhat common to see the bolts that hold the spring come loose, and fall out. These have a small, special lock that keep them retained.


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 5:50 am
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
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Topic starter
 

UPDATE:

Everything looked okay on the starter motor. (Yes, the motor would turn with the hand-crank, because the starter drive was no longer engaging the ring gear. And yes, the large spring is securely held by two small bolts, and doesn't seem to be broken.)

So I cleaned up the shaft, put on some light oil, and re-installed the starter in the car. And yes, I could hand-crank the engine over at that point (because the Bendix no longer engaged the ring gear).

Then I hit the starter. Again, the idiot lights dimmed and nothing happened. I discovered that, once again, the starter drive had jammed in the ring gear.

So once again I removed the starter, freed up the Bendix drive, and re-installed the starter. At THAT point I hand-cranked the car, and put in in my garage.

So now I'm scratching my head. (And yes, Doug, this IS probably all because of the holes in my convertible top.)

I'll probably pull the starter out tonight and take it to a starter place on Monday for them to look at. But I'm beginning to wonder if something may be wrong with the motor itself: maybe there is just enough current to engage the starter drive and then, suddenly, it shorts out? I dunno....!

Another possibility: even though the battery is only a year old, and the cell tester showed that all cells were charged (indeed, the needle went right off the charts in all three cases), could there be something wrong with the battery? Could IT have some sort of internal "short"? It lights the headlights okay but just doesn't have enough "oomph" to turn the starter.

Very, very strange. Thank you for all your ideas!


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 10:42 am
(@m-patterson56)
Posts: 452
Reputable Member Registered
 

How much clearance is present at the starter bushings, particularly the drive-end bushing? (That's where the most wear occurs) If the bushing is badly worn, the armature may rub hard on the field coil core making [i]lots[/i] of friction.....enough to stall the starter. Usually, this condition is apparent as cranking becomes progressively slower over a period of time.
F


 
Posted : 21/06/2015 6:35 pm
 ok54
(@ok54)
Posts: 272
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Jon

Read your battery voltage. A fully charged battery should be 6.3+ volts. Charge it while you free up your starter drive. You could have a bad battery or one that only needs to be charged.


 
Posted : 22/06/2015 1:02 am
(@Mike Sheridan)
Posts: 0
 

John - All kinds of things it could be. The rotor in the starter may have gone bad. One or more of the coils in the starter may be bad. The bearings in the starter may be bad to where it will spin with no load but gets hung up under load. Yes, the starter need to go to a good place and be completely checked out. As mentioned, the battery may actually be bad. I had one one time that would run everything but not turn the car over with the starter. Starter load much greater than even headlights. You could try a different battery if you have one before you take the starter in. In a previous thread on the forum, someone had troubles and thought he'd cleaned all connections. Still had problems and went through it again and found one he'd missed. It was really corroded and when he cleaned it, everything roared to life. Never underestimate 60 or 70 years of corrosion to create a problem.
If you can turn the motor over by hand (with a crank), it is unlikely to be the motor. I hate to tell you but the starter motor is much stronger than you.


 
Posted : 22/06/2015 6:00 am
(@dlm31)
Posts: 960
Noble Member Registered
 

Jon, one more quick check. Take a volt meter and check the voltage at the post coming out of the starter. This is to check,making sure the voltage is going thru the solenoid. The solenoid could be the only problem, but after looking at what youv're checked, and as much as you drive your car, I'll bet THAT starter has been worn out. A sure test will be the electrical shop and load test. Hope you get it resolved1


 
Posted : 22/06/2015 7:43 am
(@tallent-r)
Posts: 1825
Noble Member Registered
Topic starter
 

LATEST UPDATE:

The starter "has gone to a better place..."-- the auto electric shop. First off, the guy told me that the drive assembly (the one that slides on the shaft) is bad. But he's going to go over the entire starter and check it out. Looks like I might have the answer to my mystery. We'll see.

Got a load test on the battery and that checks out.


 
Posted : 22/06/2015 8:28 am
(@1oleteameo)
Posts: 91
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I read the title and I wanted to say "It's a Hudson! What did you expect!" But I'm a Step-Down man, I'll let you guys talk.


 
Posted : 27/06/2015 1:50 pm
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